Interview - Pt 1

The following is a transcription of an interview we did with a friend who was taking a Human Geography class at UBC and asked us some questions about cultural infrastructure, et al. Apologies for the frankness of it all!

Credit: Zuzia Juszkiewicz, Undergrad.
Under the Direction of Prof. Kathrine Richardson, UBC
Class: Off Campus Research in Human Geography

APPENDIX IV: “Strawberry and Scotch Sunday at the Memelab”
Interview with Mirae Rosner and Jesse Scott founders of Memelab

Z: Can you please tell the story behind memelab's creation how did you come across this space?

J: Sure, I guess the premises has to do with the person who lived here before us. He had essentially canvassed our neighborhoods looking for warehouse space, ended up running into Darren Stark and Ed Ferreria who were two major developers for CBRE – which is one of the main property developers within Yaletown. He kept on running them running in to these buildings and eventually found a suite of buildings on this block of Pandora. And found our landlord who is the only independent landlord in this area and set up shop here and started a studio. When he was moving out he just notified his mailing list and we jumped on the opportunity right away.

M: The space has some kind of history also before our friend found it. It was a party space because the landlord said when we moved in…well the landlord had told us no raves, so we said “Ok, we’re not going to throw any raves because no one does that anymore anyway (they're called hipster dance parties now!)”. The landlord is ok with us living here even though it is a totally underground illegal space in everyway. And we wanted a space, we wanted to live in a loft space where we could do our work, and have a rehearsal space, and have things going on for ourselves. And then, because we are performers we wanted to open it up to the community through these events. So we started to have these art parties - art salon events - which would bring together a variety of people in the arts, different arts, communities. Sometimes activist communities show up too and some other underground scenes – just bringing them all together and bringing in new people that do not go to any art event ever. So that was kind of where things started off in terms of becoming a space – is our desire to have these events.

From there it took about 6 months. After the first event we got the floor, and then after we got the dance floor it is now a studio where people use it for meditation group, yoga, belly dance classes, voice classes. We have had a variety of different types of people coming to rehearse here, like dance and theatre work, photo shoots. And just through word of mouth, no advertising because we are totally underground – we don’t advertise directly anywhere - through that there’s slowly an identity that’s built up in the space. It’s an identity that’s based on the fact that people come to use the space. Because there is this community of people that are accessing and using this space, we try to keep it as grass roots as possible with rentals being really cheap but we also do exchanges and work with people who do not have any money. So that’s kind of where it becomes a community space – is in that way more than it just being a community performance space although that has happened occasionally. We stopped the art salon series now and we are leaving the space soon. We might do a few more events here, but it won’t be the ones that we have done in the past.

J: …but we are making sure we pass the space off to somebody who’s going to be able to continue within the spirit of the space.

M: there are groups that have been here now for over a year, that use the space and we want them to remain. Where people come in and have their group meetings. Who ever takes this space over, is someone who wants to continue that. It’s too collective to stop it from going and we don’t want to see them [collectives, artists] out on the streets.

Z: Where are you guys going, are you moving on somewhere?

M: yea we are leaving the country in October

Z: you’re leaving the country!

M: yes, we will move to Europe for a while. We have been here for 3 years, and we have carried on through with the art party salons and we have done 7 of them. 7 over the course of 2.5 years. Kinda feel like we have carried that as far as it can go. The space is at a point now where we have been putting a lot into it as a community place. We have done own work here too….

J: its disproportional

M: Well, the balance between trying to be artists ourselves and things we need to do for ourselves, its always been balanced between what we are doing for the space. All the facilitation that comes about when you have lots of people using this space – just keeping track of schedules and making things happen – takes a lot of administrative work. So, we are at the point where we need to focus on our own work and see what else is going on in other places. It’s again important for us to see the space continue. Might get a new name, we don’t know about that, but the communities that are accessing it will continue on and so, in a lot of ways it has been very successful. But there are significant groups of people that have come together and they’re – like the meditation group has grown – the dance collective has grown and its established, its been almost a year now, and its going strong now, it’s grown. People keep gaining skills and becoming more creative in knowing what they are creating as a group together – mostly in movement. Then we also have noise jams - an all female noise collective, that is growing too. There are teachers who have used this space but these three groups – its just amazing to see them grow. And yea, its so important for us to definitely leave that legacy because there isn’t a lot of spaces where something like this is happening. It’s hard to find them and really hard to maintain them.

Z: exactly...would then the memelab have to get some funding so you can see it, witness its growth?

J and M: uhh…[hesitation, Jesse and Mirae look at one another]

J: The thing is that it can’t really grow.

M: There is nowhere to go from here. It’s become what it is. There is no one level to go to, for a whole variety of reasons.

Z: ok…uh, well then maybe in the spirit of grassroots and sustainability: how do you envision this space being sustained?

M: What we have been doing is about all we can do. Just keeping our activities underground making sure that we don’t have huge parties that attract the cops, making sure that people that come to use the space are doing things that…well we are drawing a crowd that will be respectful of the space and the community around the space. And no advertising! Those are the things that we do, and somebody could potentially keep for years. But there is no security though. There are major zoning issues and major issues to do with that, making it a place of business, making it more sustainable and with making it more secure. First of all the landlord would have to renovate the building itself – it not legal at all to even have this suite period! So, if he wanted to that and spend thousands of dollars (which doesn’t), then we could start looking at upgrading this space. And so if we had thousands of dollars, once the landlord spent thousands of dollars, we could then spend thousands of dollars and only then could we have legal suite and workshop. Only then, it could be publicly accessible and it would have everything up to date: fire code, bathrooms whatever. Then, there would be a security there. As it is now there is none. All of this could be gone like that! … Well that’s kind of the reality and we have gotten used to that and used to dealing with it and used to knowing that. Umm, however we have been here for almost 3 years and nothing has happened. The practical side is that you know the reality and that you know how to work underground and within the restrictions. That is the practical approach which we have done. If we were to try to bring this space into another level, I think that the investigations we’ve done just show that it will be impossible. Especially considering the fact that we have to get the landlord to do something he himself doesn’t really want to do and doesn’t really need to do for his business – for any reason expect for us. This whole building is illegally subdivided. He would have to go and get the city to come in and approve things, and he would have to do lots of construction to bring it up to some kind of code because it is a warehouse – so it could be some kind of industrial building. So for now, they built these walls and floors and things.

J: you know they just built it and never really bothered to get into zoning qualification. And just getting by like…

Z: So you can’t do much with the actual physical structure?

M: Oh, we did have a friend who did this in the neighborhood. We do know people who did their all their research, very well connected, really on it. They tried to rent a collective space in this area, and they were kicked out within minutes. The city would not allow…

Z: what happened?

M: I think the main issues are that city is not willing to have these front-runners, gentrifiers, artists starting to move into this area.

J: They [the city] told the landlord that they were not interested in to looking into any sorts of rezoning. And whatever it was they were trying to do: an office slash bookshop slash community space.

Z: that is very bleak. Speaking of such actions, do any of the organizations such as Arts Alliances or Task Forces in city get involved in helping to sustain spaces and collectives such as this or is it pretty hands off?

J: Places such as the Arts Alliance and place of Cultural Affairs are primarily looking out for their own, and primarily stuck within their world view. So places like the Office of Cultural Affairs and Arts Alliances are looking for places that are established that are legal, that are on the map. PAARC is sympathetic to underground spaces because they have been there and that is where the come from, the Artist-Run Culture, but at the same time it’s a bit of a dog eat dog world in terms of funding, audience, demographic and audience development. So in my experience moving into PAARC with Post-Butchershop Coalition was that they were “Oh sorry its to bad, its sucks…ok, so about this grant….” The Vancouver foundation turned the page pretty quickly.

M: there is nothing in place where you could go and say “I want to start an Artist–Run Space. Can you help me? What do I need to do?"

J: There is intense amounts of capital of things that would have be brought into this process, for one. So there are no bridging institutions that would match artist with visions with venture capitalists, or people who have administration skills, organization skills…

M: yeah so starting from square one if you didn’t have a space yet. You would be hard pressed to find resources to help you start one up properly. What people do is they go find some really sketchy place – and they just do it. They just move in thinking, “this could last for month, or it might not” or they are really naïve and they’ll be like “Hey this awesome”, they get really involved in it and they love it!”

J: They try to do everything by the book and it just burns them. Even to get the liquor licenses for their events which does nothing but put them on the map as a place to be shut down. Collectives attempt to go to the city of Vancouver and say “Hey we want to do this and this.” They [the city] says “Well guys its gonna take 5 years and 280 000 dollars.”…

[Mirae jumps in eagerly]

M: …So “hey now that we know where you are you need to pay us your money or you’re kicked out!” That’s exactly the process that has been repeated again and again: somebody will start something up and on practical, functional level it is working – people are using the space there is a lot going on, there is a lot of cultural vitality happening. When the law gets involved because there has been a party and somebody has made a noise complaint, or because the people throwing the party went to get a temporary liquor license and do it by the book; then the task forces are the team that goes out on Saturday nights and inspects the liquor license and catches them. When something wrong happens there is nothing in place at the stage, there is nobody around that says “Hey you guys are contributing to culture in this city and we want to help you not get shut down. If you get your act together you can apply for this grant to do this upgrade or we’re gonna waive this fee (kind of a bursary). We’re gonna help you out because you artist and you don’t make money of your space, like a retail space would.” At these various stages there is nothing around. We have been doing these various meetings to get people talking about this stuff. This one guys who is a city planner said, well his idea was, there needs to be an advocacy group for this. There needs to be somebody around that people can go to either at stage one or later in the process. Somebody that will actually be like: “Ok we’re gonna advocate for these spaces”. Because they really need to be fostered I believe, I really think we are not allowing for this stuff to bubble up from the grassroots. Thus we will continue to see mono-culture everywhere, in the city, in its buildings in its places to gather. It’s really fascinating to me that people keep doing it.

Z: You are right, even the advocates in place that claim they have interest in local culture, fail to show up to public meetings at the city, for example like 901 Main St. They just don’t show based on excuses that they were not given enough time. Where is public response?

M: Well the problem is these spaces are from the underground. I think it is important to have a lot of diversity in culture on those levels. In a way things are pushed underground and because it’s a two way street: things are surviving underground and contribute to the cultural vitality, but then on the public side people do not know about them; they are not as aware. In our experience when people come here [memelab] for instance they would bring their co-workers. The co-workers would be like “woah! I have never been to an art gallery before and here I am, and this is so great and so cool.” Then we would have someone’s mom come to an event and say: “I’m so glad the kids these days aren’t like Paris Hilton.” They actually said that! On that level there is a lot of potential if we had a little more of this advocacy and enabling of these spaces and you know, it just would contribute to the texture and fabric of the city, and the cultural life of this city in a way where there could be little more exposure. Artist could thrive and create stronger work, its about community building for me, more then anything - and community has got to start somewhere. In a way we have responsibility to artists but we also have to work with them in terms of that communication. So…you can’t really say “The public doesn’t want this, we should do this. Because the public wants the big cinema then we’ll…” [Mirae looks down at her green tea and pauses]…if there isn’t the other option there, how will people make the choice, if there isn’t any choice. If artist are not around to work on these choices.

Z: Yes, awareness important whether in the community itself or in a larger local-global discourse, this idea of what choices we have…[I stumble over my words] Moving on I would like readdress the memelab: Can you please tell me a little about your most successful show in this space, and what to you made it successful?

J: I guess there are different qualifications of success. You know with our salon series we have had ones that have been really full and we have had ones that have had well received art, we have ones that have evoked very passionate almost controversial discussion, or ones where we have seen the place get totally trashed. Some of those have intersected in salons others its kind hard to say, but u…

[pauses]

M: The events I guess one of the salons, more intimate, less work, the audience was mellow and there were 60 people. And that one felt nice. I think for me, the success is the groups that are coming out of this space and think that those groups are really the most successful things. It is really about these new community, and new communities of artists and people connecting…

J:..a sense of empowerment and sense of legacy

M:…being able to provide a space for them has made them possible. Some of them started without us and then have found us. But I think being able to be a stable, cheap, affordable space…Oh, we also have discussion series that started, that is going really well too. Every time we get the right amount of people, 10 -15 people. We discuss the work of art

Z: oh critical response…can I hear more about it…I was think about coming but don’t know…

J: You don’t have to bring anything with you. It is a process that was developed by the Liz Lerman Dance Exchange. She was a dancer in Washington DC, and has been around for a long time …It’s a process that is very structured way for artists to control and shape feedback mechanism for their work…

It’s a process that transcends genres….

[We speak a little about the history]

Z: How does it run form start to finish?

M: Process that needs to be taught. We have everyone come in. We have little snacks and tea and break the ice a bit. Then people get to know each other. And Laura teaches the four steps of the process. The first steps, the artist shows the work and we ask for brief responses from the audience usually, ones that involve…

[Jesse quickly jumps in]

J: statements of meaning!

[Jesse pauses, looks over at Mirae and she continues to speak]

M: Well, it is called “statements of meaning”. Basically, what you found to be meaningful, very briefly. Then the second step is that the artist asks questions and people respond without an opinion. They answer the question, they have to answer the question they can’t go off on a tangent! [Mirae’s raises her tone] Then the artist can ask question, but they make sure that within their question they can’t state an opinion.

J: If they want to the artist does not have to answer.

M: Well, I guess they don’t, no. Then the last piece is that audience state opinions with permission form the artist. This really breaks it down very simply but the whole thing is about attempting to give the best feedback to the artist. Its about the artist gain of the feedback, doing it in away that brings discussion to the issues rather than about people’s personal views about what the artist should do and what they should have done and what they need to do. Trying to take that out and trying…

J: …Essentially, it’s the piece that lands back in the hands of the artist. Make sure the piece and the work and the showing, is about empowering the work and not about gratifying the ego of the viewer. [25:00]

Z: That is fantastic…has this process been adopted anywhere?

M: It is taking off in the states in different communities. Its getting really well known. I guess it’s starting to come to Canada.

Z: It’s cool.

M: its cool, it almost like doing a workshop because we have each time lots of new people and we have to learn. And it is one of those things how you are speaking, what you are saying. How you are trying to say what you want to say. IT is intense.

Z: Who are the Artists?

M: well if you have something to show you can just sign up. The work can be any medium, or at any stage: almost done, just started, just an idea but it has to be something you are working on and want to continue working on…

[Zuzia Rambles, must be the scotch].

Z: how do you function as a collaboration: what are you influences, where you gel or clash or how do you work things out?

J: between us?

Z: Yeah. Just curious how it materializes, how your efforts get put “out there” into your space?

J: Well, a lot of the salons, art parties. We kind of set the stage and we give general guidelines about the form and function of things and then allow people to take it up themselves and work with them throughout the process. Give where possible: studio, rehearsal and inspiration, time and chances for artist can connect and collaborate on something themselves. Throughout friends in the community and people who are involved here - Dance troop, Critical Response – have been either co-initiated or pitched to us.

M: right

J: In terms of staging here; we have instances where in retrospect and before announcing something we have realized that has not been a collaborative effort, and we attempted to addend that and have cancelled or not gone forward with events. The collective process is the key to the whole idea, that it is a lateral power structure.

M: We have always done things that are informal, works in progress, experiments, an emphasis on that and on collaboration – bring different teams together. We've never reached a point where we had an idea, and we necessarily though of it in terms of structuring it to the point we were getting it across to the right people - that fit into the idea. Things evolve, things are collaborated on, sometimes we don’t know what the project is gonna look like the final stage. A lot of it has to do in the economics involved in the space, because there is no money involved, no one is getting paid, we are not hiring people. The lateral structure really comes out as part of the underground collaboration. The politics of the space are very much influenced by economics. We have made that choice to embrace that, economically we never know what could happen in the space. We never know what will happen with the night we are putting on in a way, sometimes, although we have had pretty clear ideas of certain perimeters. What happens: people that come into this space to work on things, they have to be down with the scene, and collaborative side of things, and have to know what it is that we are dealing with here. There is a cultural thing going on, which is interesting to me, we never really wanted to be exclusive, we don’t want to say “you can’t come you can’t participate because you are different”. It is an interesting paradox…Finding strength and community where people can support one another, but on the other side there is culture built up…If we were to be staying, here I would love to keep working with this paradigm and keep bringing in new influences into this particular community (the east side underground art space). This community has a certain cultural background and I think we [the city, and publics?] all need to be collectively more aware….just to know the certain nexus (very specific) that we are operating in. Saying that we have had new people that come in. And not all people mix… I am interested in the location that we are in. As artists in these neighborhoods, playing a role in the gentrification process possibly, we need to be aware of that and we need to be connecting more. I think in terms of the work that is being done in these neighborhoods. You know there is the party culture that attaches themselves, and they need to shut down. This party culture I think as a lack of consequence, in terms of being responsible. Those are some of the issues, if we were to be staying in this community, I would like to address…In some ways we are already by saying we are workshop space, we are not a party space, we are not getting shut down. We are enabling and all female noise collective, we are doing Dance stuff, meditation, we are doing a different types of things, within the public events if we were stay – we would have to look at restructuring those because they are starting to get too much of party thing. The collaboration throughout all of this is really key, and collaboration has to occur when people have to agree on something. That is where the cultural thing happens. When people have come in and want to show something. .. It is an interesting moment, when do you become exclusive? Where do you not collaborate with somebody?

Z: You provide an environment where you can get people involved…however, is this a space where your collectives and audience can start embracing these very same ideas you are attracted to and critique?

M: maybe

J: ..can’t cognize it - the element of support structure.

M: we had one group…wanna talk about it.

J: No

Z: what went on?

M: no there is this other situation.

J: it’s not relevant.

Z: oh…well tell me off record…thanks guys!