An Open Letter to the City of Vancouver

Dear City of Vancouver,

My name is Jesse Scott, a former resident of Vancouver, and from 2004-06, I was one of the Co-producers of The Butchershop, a multi-functional art space that was the predecessor (and previous occupant of 195 E. 26th Avenue) of Little Mountain Studios/Gallery from 2002-2006.

It is with great concern that I am notified about increasing pressure from the City of Vancouver over the operations and legality of LMS. I had hoped that both sides had learned from previous mistakes and were able to step forward together.

___

First, I would like to provide a history of my civic involvement with the artistic and cultural scene in Vancouver... the ups and downs of my time years there, my hopes and disappointments...

I was, of course, privy to the entire, months-long dialogue between The Butchershop and the CoV in 2005/06 when we were forced to close our doors, after being delivered a $80,000 ultimatum on 'venue enhancements'. That was one of the worst days of my life, seeing something that myself and a dozen very close friends had poured YEARS of our life into, only to see it swept away.

During the 2005 Civic election campaign, Heather Deal, nominee for City Council for Vision Vancouver, visited The Butchershop and held a roundtable with our collective and other members of the community, expressing the importance of ground-level artistic enterprise to the economic and cultural makeup of Vancouver, and that things would 'change'... we believed her… of course, the NPA won that election.

During the 2005 edition of the Pacific Association of Artist Run Centres (PAARC) SWARM Festival, The Butchershop held a series of roundtable discussions with directors, producers, and artists from diverse backgrounds, from former directors of underground spaces that had been shut down by the CoV in the 80s and 90, to members from the Board of Directors of other 'legit' spaces that receive funding from City/Provincial/National Art Councils, to name a few.

During this time we had already begun to be pressured by the CoV, in particular the Zoning office, and categorically shunned by the Office of Cultural Affairs (as we didn't fall into their qualifications of a cultural space), and this was our attempt to decide how to move forward with developing and sustaining a community-orientated, multi-faceted, and accessible/non-commercial arts space, to learn best practices as deciphered from the rich history of our city.

Though we took on this initiative, it wasn't enough... we faced too wide of a divide with the CoV, and we lost the battle.

After The Butchershop was closed, I was one of the core founders of Underground Network of Artist Run Culture (UNARC), alongside members of the Seamrippers, WRKS DVSN, 69 Pender, and other spaces that had been shut down by the CoV around the same time.

During the 2006 edition of SWARM, UNARC held a 'wake' for Artist Run Centres at Main and Broadway, with spaces as old as Misanthropy, the (sugar refinery), and the Church of Pointless Hysteria, contributing poster art to the event; we proceeded to cover the dozen-or-so civic poster poles around that intersection with commissioned posters from 12 closed-down art spaces as a form of cultural protest, and received media coverage in the Vancouver Sun and the Globe and Mail. Out of this press, I was invited to speak at a conference in St. John's, Newfoundland, on the state of artist-run culture, and ground-level strategies.

In 2006-07, I was an active participant in the Creative City Conversation held by the OCA, and met many of it's Officers personally, while continually advocating for the development of a framework for addressing the substantial gaps in dealing with underground/ground-level arts spaces that have merely possessed will and passion, but not the financial and/or organizational wherewithal to achieve long-term sustainability, let alone afford a consultant or qualify for a Canada Council Flying Squad grant.

In 2006, I was contractually employed by Gallery Gachet, and indirectly the Down Town East Side Community Arts Network (DTES CAN), and was privy to some of the cultural mapping of the DTES that they were performing with North Sky Consulting, and had a chance to address NSC about the overlooked and (sometimes intentionally-) hidden spaces, and what this meant for an enterprise such as cultural mapping, which was paving the way for the Provincial Cultural District plans, as well as the CCC.

From 2006-07 I was invited for publishing and spoken engagements by the Centre for Expertise on Culture and Communities (CECC), a project run in part by Simon Fraser University at their Harbourfront Campus; again, I was able to have long, detailed conversations by several cultural planners, architects, and academics as to the importance of recognizing the difficulties of ground-level spaces, and how problematic it was to not have a civic engagement strategy for them, the disastrous history of this neglect, and received overwhelming support and commendations for championing this cause.

I attended several presentations of the 'DeSacco Report', authored by renowned Cultural Economist Luigi DeSacco of Milan, and commissioned by Vancity to address the cultural health of the city (it was found wanting, as you well know), and presented my case at their open meetings.

From 2002-08, I worked for New Forms Festival, and was able to work alongside dozens of venues, producers, and organizations, and gained an appreciation for attempting to do cultural production above ground within Vancouver and Canada.

From 2005-08, I co-ran another space, the memelab, and along with UNARC, we held an open-format potluck/roundtable series, entitled 'The Tipping Point', which garnered immense interest from diverse communities; a frequent guest was, of course, a sense of growing frustration at the inaccessibility of the CoV, due to bureaucracy, cryptic language, archaic laws, and, of course, fear of reprisal. We attempted to map out possible strategic paths for spaces to choose various levels of organization and legality. Some participants were able to secure funding. Some chose a viable business model, and have thrived. Some suffered from burnout, lack of funds, and organizational overhead. Some vanished, yet again.

In 2008, the memelab produced a project, named, in jest at the OCA, the 'Creative City Conversation' (first imagined as a noise band) aimed at forming a conversation-in-action, where the CCC of the OCA had let us down. We invited several artists who re-imagined the city and its spaces, with both hope and nostalgia.

___

In 2008, I moved to Toronto; after years of investment in the artistic/cultural scene of Vancouver, I had become frustrated and jaded. During my time in Toronto, I had the opportunity to present work at the City-funded and -produced 'Nuit Blanche' Festival, and, while not perfect, I found their Cultural Affairs Department to be energetic, accessible, and understanding. I currently live and work in Berlin, Germany and Trondheim, Norway.

___

I realize rather that I am subject to the angle that I experienced their personnel and policies of the CoV from. I have spoken with many of your staff personally, and have found them to be open, with the best of the city at heart. But as Government, you play a game where you dictate the rules, and few others can play this game, without resources at hand, without a particular logic...

Again, I know first-hand the infrastructural issues that 195 E. 26th Ave faces. I lived that struggle. I talked to those people whole lived on that street, and surrounding businesses. I continually asked our patrons mind our neighbours. I dealt with police, and building inspectors. And I understand the trepidation of a gallery owner who is about to receive a visit from you. But let's make a framework where they don't have to be afraid, to hide facts, thoughts, or even dreams about how they can run their business.

I am not advocating for overlooking or abolishing zoning, health, or fire regulations. I am not asking you to look the other way. I am asking that - after decades of heavy-handed dealings with under-powered arts spaces - that you approach this open-handed and open-minded. Find a way through; there has been too much damage already.

I am asking that you engage in a recorded, open, and published conversation with the organizers at LMS. The entire city would benefit from a transparent, documented process.

We need to know what you say, how you think. We need to see your case, point-by-point, and have time to analyze the details and consequences. We need to understand the paradigms that you are operating under. We need to see you are not just committed to high-profile, mega-projects (not that I don't love W2).

You need to understand the limitations we throw ourselves against, the divide between our languages, organizational capacity, and the unique challenges we face. You need to understand our culture, and that we do this for love, not profit, that we don't have investors or patrons, and we do this while holding down other jobs or careers. You need to understand how much we want this, and how tired we are.

Other cultural producers, artists, and citizens need to see both of our points, to understand the scope and arrangement of this problem. For it is one that has reached a breaking point in Vancouver, after decades... Keith Wallace wrote 'A Particular History of ARC's in Vancouver' in the 90s, and that was already an old story...

Vancouver has for too long been subject to a reputation as 'No-Fun City', something that Vision Vancouver and the current administration has pledged to address. For over a decade, the artistic community has been subject to an intense form of 'brain-drain' to other, more permissive cities, within Canada and abroad.

Vision, the OCA, the zoning department, etc. all need to come forward with a single voice. For too long have different arms of the Civic structure played good-cop, bad-cop with us.

The Butchershop was a vitally important platform for the artistic community of Vancouver, and it is solely missed worldwide, by artists, musicians, theatre performers, and more. As is Seamrippers. As is WRKS DVSN. As is 69 Pender. As is The Underwear Farm. As is The Meatball. As is Misanthropy. As is Local 156. As is The Church of Pointless Hysteria. As is the Lux Theatre. As is the (sugar refinery). As is… well, that's just off the top of my head, but there's more…. as Little Mountain would be, should you we both not learn from our mistakes.

Let's fix this now.

Regards,

Jesse Scott

Former-resident, City of Vancouver

Artist, Curator, Organizer, Writer

Trondheim, Norway

July 25th, 2010

Tactical Architecture

a funny personal anecdote was related to me the other day, over some 4-Star Vegan, and it got me thinking...

My uncle, who is a Psychology Professor at York University in Toronto, was telling me about an exchange term where he taught at the University of Sao Paulo in Brazil around the turn of the decade. For the first week, there was excessive winds tearing through the campus, and he was complaining that all the buildings are excessively spread out, built an estimated minimum of 2km away from each other, requiring him to walk through the wind and not just causeway from building to building. He asked one of his colleagues why this was, and was greeted with the reply that the University had redesigned it that way during upgrades and expansion in the early 60's at the behest of the Government and Military, so that in the case of a student uprising, the army would be able to isolate each building with ease.

Now this entire story is just hearsay, and I haven't been able to back it up visually or factually, but it triggered a firestorm of thoughts about the integration of architecture and urban geography with the powers of the state; that they are almost always working at their behest, that our environments are increasingly being shaped and designed against us, and that we are increasingly left to the marginal options of reacting to those spaces... the essence of Molar/Molecular.

This is more of a signpost than a manifesto, and this topic has been covered with far more grace and depth elsewhere, but it seemed prescient...

~ J

PS - Speaking of York U, I heard a similar rumour that the causeway in the centre of campus was designed so that you could drive a tank up it...

Tactical Media, Meta-Tags, and Open Sourcery: a discussion of the theoretical implications of the GRL Project

(Note: this was originally created for and posted on Artengine's blog during my residency there in the Summer of 2009)

Tactical Media, Meta-Tags, and Open Sourcery: a discussion of the theoretical implications of the GRL project

Agent Scott, Graffiti Research Lab - Canada

INTRO

The Graffiti Research Lab (GRL) project has a simple mission - to outfit graffiti writers and street artists with open source tools for urban communication. Our projects combine creative coding and public space intervention that are designed to be tactical exposés masked in populism, simultaneously spectacular and subversive. Here in this text I hope to explore several tropes within the project, using Critical Art Ensemble's framework of Digital Resistance as a lodestone, and to discuss possible avenues for our further development.

FRAMEWORK

Though the individual members of GRL act as artists and producers, the project's strength comes from its frameworks facilitating the self-expression of others - a model that grows out of the organization's open source mandate. It extends beyond the technical collaborations at the heart of GRL's development to the interventions designed to open up public space for more democratic and creative expression.

GRL makes use of the viral potential of new technologies; a powerful set of simple ideas is replicated by loosely associated, autonomous cells distributed throughout the world. Each action expands the reach of the concept and gives birth to new presentations, methodologies and software. From the initial emergence of GRL from Eyebeam in NYC we have seen a proliferation of cells contributing to the development of the project, alongside referential work using the original software and techniques, but not created by the original members.

During a formal GRL event, the practical application of the groups ideals becomes challenging. While we provide tools and the framework for expression, we must also take responsibility for its output. We partly address this duality by extolling the virtues of amateur practice alongside more formal graffiti taxonomies. Amateur practices have "the ability to see through dominant paradigms, are freer to recombine elements of paradigms thought long dead, and can apply everyday life to their deliberations... eliminating the privileged position of the director, auteur, genius, or any other reductive, privatizing category."1 Despite our embrace of the amateur we make no apologies for enabling formal graffiti practitioners, seeing their work as a valid form of aesthetic and political expression. Though these graffiti artists form an active core of the development of our tools, we are also constantly expanding the interdisciplinary nature of the project to include graphic novelists, manga artists, muralists, and designers, as well as using the software to provide video design for dance and club performances.

There is another challenging hurdle to the realization of GRL ideals. The internet, and technology access in general, is still culturally and politically bordered. Although GRL artists, and its audience, operate within a level of the technological elite, by occupying this space we develop new forms of digital resistance. We also recognize that we exist in a symbiotic relationship with consumer culture, and benefit from the cheapening of technology within the marketplace, particularly the planned democratization of media according to the special timeline of market forces. But we attempt to exert influence on this process by creating forward-thinking digital tools that resist franchised market and intellectual forces, and thus broaden the creative playing field for artists (graffiti or otherwise).

FREE LIBRE OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE

We know that "once named and defined, any movement is open to co-optation"2 .... this is precisely where the structure of an open source, federated cluster of cells comes in. Having a decentralized multiplicity of voices means that because other interests will ultimately appropriate us (as we have re-appropriated other interests), we don't waste energy in fighting this, and thus are able to stay free of representation or association. There are faint, gestural blockages, to be sure. For instance our license that explains 'software may not be used for advertising, marketing, or promotion', though there is confirmation that it already has. But this is little more than a hand put up to stop a tank: possibly effective, but easily steamrolled if some power has the will.

Being open source is not just having an idealistic organizational mode that we mean to push on social development, though we understand that information should not be privatized... "experimentation and invention would be hindered by lack of access to the building blocks of culture"3 Open Source is a strategy; we realize, from whichever viewpoint we use - the avant-garde, the collective, or the technologist - that we will not be around for much longer... too many factors are involved in us being subverted, surpassed, and self-destructed. Yes, we are adamant that information should be free, but also that the GRL project is particularly relevant at this moment, and by freely distributing our software - hence having it used and developed by others - is the best manner with which to preserve the core message and concern of GRL.

TACTICAL MEDIA, SEMIOTICS, AND THE THEATRE OF EVERYDAY LIFE

GRL is a tactical media project in that "... it is a form of digital intervention. It challenges the existing semiotic regime by replicating and redeploying it in a manner that offers participants in the projects a new way of seeing, understanding and interacting with a given system."4

Urban projection can be thought of as a system of parallel intervention upon architectures and a molecular irruption upon the regime of signs. "Tactical media is ephemeral. It leaves few material traces. As the action comes to an end, what is left is primarily living memory... Monumental works are the great territorializers—they refuse to ever surrender space. Instead they inscribe their imperatives upon it and disallow anything other than passive viewing."5 GRL places the trace directly upon the surface of the monument - literally - and as such re-codes and re-signifies it, temporarily and permanently. It is a 'maximal' screen and 'maximal' surface - eschewing traditional tactical media concerns of being underground and out of the gaze of the media. It is easily shrugged aside by those in power (though just as likely causes irrational concern), but truly resplendent for those participating in the event.

The GRL project can also be classified as a form of recombinant theatre, or the theatre of everyday life - "performances that invent ephemeral, autonomous situations from which temporary public relationships emerge that can make possible critical dialogue on a given issue."6 At its best the ephemeral nature focuses the participants on creative play, both in the direct expression and the environment around it... nowhere is this seen better than when participants play a 150-ft version of tic-tac-toe on the side of a building.

"When the process functions properly, the instigators of the event immediately fall into a mode of deterritorialization, and the process drifts into a multiplicity of unknown directions. No real intentionality exists, since the interaction is process-oriented and thereby subject to many unforeseeable causalities and accidents. Only aesthetic products can be fully intentionalized and their quality controlled."7 We have been criticized for oscillating between being process and goal-oriented in our urban projections, and it is true. There is a conflict between the ideas of tactical media and recombinant theatre that has not yet been resolved. But graffiti itself is diverse, and pursuant to the open-source goals of the project as a whole, we think there is space for multiple orientations and aesthetics within a GRL presentation.

GEOGRAPHY AND THE TAG

Tagging, within the context of graffiti, is pervasive and contested. Rapid, microscopic, and immediate, the tag is of the lowest hierarchy within the graffiti taxonomy, often indicative of a more childish, naive, or less accomplished style. It is easily covered and resurfaced, but correspondingly, much more mobile and malleable to multiple environments and architectures.

Whereas the physical landscape is marked by graffiti tags, the information landscape is marked increasingly by the XML tag, a meta-level markup technology allowing information to be categorized in ways according to the predilections of the user. Systems like Flickr and Twitter are presented as 'social' systems because of the levels of social interaction encouraged by user participation and the new kinds of arrangements of information they encourage. Tagging is lauded as a horizontal, bottom-up canon of information, allowing for two-way, subjective participation, whereas previous systems were entirely passive and objective.

The XML tag and the graffiti tag are becoming alike in function as well as in name. With GRL software, one is not just tagging a wall, but actively revolting against proscribed social structures. Both Flickr and Google allow for systems of 'memory maps', where users comment and provide enriched content upon monumental architectures. In both cases the tag is a user-defined and dictated act against a rigid social order, but to an extent, this level of benign commentating only reinforces and proscribes a limited map of autonomy that we have in our daily lives. As has been shown by thinkers from Proudhon to Reich to Deleuze, internalizations of power structures likely mean that we will replicate the same dynamics and hierarchies onto new systems. The meta-tag however, still has inescapable radical potential for individuals to create agency.

With this in mind, will the GRL project have reached its logical conclusion when projection-bombing occurs in real space, and subsequently is tagged and mapped in virtual space? Or is there more to be done here? If we consider the tagging practice combined with locative media possibilities, a rich range of possibilities emerges. Indeed, GRL is currently working to hack Google Maps Street View, allowing for community-generated maps of tag-able locales. The more we are able to articulate our parallel concerns with the field of urban geography, the more we are able to mimic and subvert information architectures, and the larger the field of play for GRL will become.

FOOTNOTES

1. Critical Art Ensemble, Digital Resistance, Autonomedia, p. 8

2. Ibid, p. 5

3. Ibid, p. 150

4. Ibid, p. 7

5. Ibid, p. 9

6. Ibid, p. 87

7. Ibid, p. 89

Liminal Screen / bombIR

I was able to go back to the BNMI in February and March of 2009, alongside my Graffiti Research Lab partner NomIg, in order to develop a new open-source tool for digital graffiti, bombIR.

bombIR consists of an infrared pen (we hacked the circuit inside a spray-pant can!), a rear projection setup, a computer, and a Nintendo Wiimote. Using the Wiimote as an IR camera, the nozzle of the IR Can triggers the momentary switch, effectively transforming the can into a mouse device. From there, we used WiiFlash Server to communicate the Wii values to Flash, as we had written a graf-specific drawing program, with the help of the BNMI staff.

Just had our first public presentation at the founding of the GRL Ottawa event at the end of July '09. Upcoming presentations include Nuit Blanche, Toronto, Oct 3rd, '09.

This is all just Beta-testing... keep your eye on the GRL_ca site for full release...

nomads in a dangerous time

mirae and i are officially leaving you Vancouver.

Banff is up next, with a string of residencies at the Banff Centre for the Arts, then Toronto (we think) for the summer.

Then across the pond ...??

EDIT:

we have been in Toronto for some weeks, since April 1st, to be exact... (no, we weren't sure that it wasn't a joke at first either...)

fascinating city. we have been house-sitting/pet-sitting for three months now, which is a great way to force yourself to understand a new locale - especially one as neighbourhood-driven as Toronto... forcing yourself to identify local coffee shops, vegan restaurants, hardware stores, print houses...

We stayed in Cabbagetown, moved successively north along Ossington, from Queen to Bloor to St. Claire, lived just outside of Kensington Market, about to move into Parkdale...

We had this fantastic moment at the 'Right Here, Right Now' conference where a slew of the experimental theatre/dance crowd drew us up a homemade community map on 6ft of butcher paper, complete with a legend showing good porches, free wifi, bike routes, restaurants, galleries, etc....

Creative City Conversation

the memelab is currently instigating a new project, entitled the Creative City Conversation, which will have its first performance as part of The Upgrade! series on January 14/09. The impetus for this project is the civic development and cultural planning consultation that has been occurring in Vancouver over the past two years.  As the memelab, we have been directly involved in this process as the organizers of an alternative arts space, and as participants and advocates at several community consultations. 

 

Intending to create a true conversation where the City of Vancouver and its Office of Cultural Affairs fails to, the project aims to engender cross-cultural collaboration, anti-authoritarian power relations, and to serve as an international project nexus. The improvisational structure of artistic creation and sharing will reflect upon the social and cultural spaces we inhabit, and act as a microcosm of the polis, though one in which we have enhanced agency and can engender change.

 

C.C.C will provide an alternate space for dialogue – a space of interdisciplinary collaboration – that will bring together sound, media and performance-based artists to creatively address issues to do with our experience of the urban environment and the civic development processes. 

 

For our first installment, the memelab will call together familiar friends and allies, across artistic disciplines, to explore the theme centre and periphery. Through an open, improvisational staging that blends video, sound, and movement performance, we plan to lead a non-lateral, exploratory conversation that results in a 30-minute piece. The structure and content of the improvisation will stem from ideas collectively pooled within the group; the memelab (Jesse and Mirae) will act as facilitators working towards a smooth (as opposed to striated) gathering of collaborators, materials and ideas.

 

The Creative City Conversation will be an opportunity to discuss: concise ways to bring together complex systems of artists, methodologies, and gear; collaborative artistic process as a process of social dialogue; and current paradigms relating to city design and our experience of the urban environment.

 

We would like to invite you to participate as an artist in this dialogue. The Upgrade! is ‘a gathering on art, technology, and culture’ that brings together members of the media arts and other communities in Vancouver to discuss current ideas in new media, and connect to other artistic communities city- and world-wide.

 

For the January 14th installment of The Upgrade!, the memelab has been asked to discuss our practice and history, especially in relation to our former space and programming at 1814 Pandora Street. In addition, we have decided to perform the first installment of Creative City Conversation – with your assistance, as an artist who has been an integral part of the work we have done in Vancouver. We plan to stage this project in several cities across the continents in our coming travels, and are excited to work with all of you again…

 

Please let us know if you are interested – or have any further questions – and if you are able to attend the following rehearsals/jams.  Note that at this time, there is no funding for this project, and as such we will not be able to pay artist fees.  Nevertheless, we would be honored by your participation... Since we are leaving Vancouver a week after this event, we plan to make it our (final) going away party, and so encourage you to attend even if you cannot fully take part!!!

 

j&M

the memelab

GRL in Banff

Video here

Global Packet Datum

... maybe all y'all can help me work through some stuff;

the piece that I am working on during the co-production residency at the BNMI is entitled "Global Packet Datum", and references the the various continental datum created throughout the 20th century surrounding the fields of earth sciences that led to the WGS - or World Geodetic System - that allowed for technologies such as GPS to blossom.

This project falls slightly outside of my realm of experience, but has many common touch points where it relates to my interests and/or experience, such as application design, graphical programming, and networking. Traditionally, I have worked within live environments, public experiences, and performance modalities; and I am quite happy to be stepping outside of my normal realm of experience...

EDIT:

This project has seen some development...

The larger engine currently allows a GPS-enabled smartphone to direct it's coordinates (NMEA data) to a server, which ports it to a computer running a suite of Pure Data patches. The Pd patches use the NMEA data (latitude, longitude, altitude, speed, number of satellites, signal to noise, etc.) to generate, simultaneously, a polygonal video environment reflecting the users location, and accompanying sound environment.

We aim to develop a complete stream back to the device, so that the user can see/hear an abstraction of their environment. From there, they are able to discern causal relationships (i.e. altitude = volume) and 'play' their environment... which we term a 'geo-parcour' .

Teaming up with Brady Marks, we recently tendered an official application to re-stage and continue the piece at the BNMI through the auspices of a Canada Council grant, but were recently notified that the application was not successful.

Will advise as to development....

Week 1 +

wow.... 

sorry I haven't been updating this very much... the first week or so has been a blast.

it's been really interesting interfacing with so many other people on these issues of space and location, and seeing how everyone's piece - ranging from GPS abstractions to Community Mapping to Augmented Reality etc. - is dealing with critical issues in this field. 

We've done a number of fascinating workshops and demonstrations on GPS theory and practice, Soundwalks, Open Design, Field Recording, Graphical Programming, mScape, etc.. 

Been some interesting technical considerations, blockages, and workarounds for various projects, which really give a good lay of the land for this field.

Will write more soon...

Jesse

Banff

Nov 08

Almost Perfect - Day 1

I have arrived at the Almost Perfect 'Call and Response' co-production residency at the Banff Centre's New Media Institute. 

Focused on Locative Media, there are 9 other new media artists -

Austin Angelozzi, Robert Damphousse, Florian Hollerweger, Maia Iotzova, Amos Latteier, Nikki Pugh, Christopher Quine, Andrew Roth, Sarah Shamash, Laura Silver -

working in fields of community story telling, GPS, game theory, mapping, and more... and supported by several peer advisors, including Daniel Belasco Rogers, Sophia New, Angus Leech, Antonio Abad, Kate Hartman, and Kay Burns. 

Soccer match

Anyone know about the impromptu street-wide soccer match that happened at Granville and Robson  on the 5th? If so, please comment... 

Free Culture Game

Haven't checked this out yet, but I plan to!

Open Mobile

wow... what a great series of talks, particularly the Keynote by Jean Hebert (mobilemuse.ca), who talked about the changing dynamics of social space and how that conjoins with ideas of open culture and open mobiles... ca

Scott Nelson's (freethenet.ca) talk on Mobile Video touched on many open-source flash points and ideological battles within that realm... 

Irwin Oostindie presented the Fearless City Mobile project in a fresh perspective, and reinvigorated my appreciation for that project...

Interview - Pt 2

The following is a transcription of an interview we did with a friend who was taking a Human Geography class at UBC and asked us some questions about cultural infrastructure, et al. Apologies for the frankness of it all!

Credit: Zuzia Juszkiewicz, Undergrad.
Under the Direction of Prof. Kathrine Richardson, UBC
Class: Off Campus Research in Human Geography

APPENDIX III
Interview with Jesse Scott Former Butchershop Member

Z: To frame: Can you tell me about the Butchershop and its gallery mandate?

J: Sure, it was a preexisting space that I was involved in taking over. It had operated for almost two years when Forbes Lattimer (the proprietor) had a number of opportunities outside of Vancouver and was not going to be able to further dedicate the time for the space. Basically, he created a list of people that he knew would be possible substitutes and sent out an invitation. We had a big meeting and some of us knew each other already and some of us didn’t. There was probably 40 people that first showed up and 20 of us found a common cause and decided to go for it. There were so many people involved with so many different backgrounds and levels of experience, aptitudes, genres and subcultures that we were involved in. That was all brought to the table – so it was a melting pot of ideas and artistic disciplines.

The Butchershop was an essentially a multidisciplinary art space. We were looking at the ideas of art run culture, closely examining the road map of what a space like us could turn into. We only really saw one model within Vancouver which was the Artist-Run Center, a model we had some reservations about. In the end we decided not to go that way, although the debate resurfaced a dozen times over the two operating years. The mandate was to be a creative space, to show work local and from out of town communities that didn’t have the same kind of space. We did a huge variety of events, workshops, screenings, art, and music event – all across the board. Eventually it became a victim of its own success.

Z: What did you get out of your participation in the Butchershop?

J: It was interesting for me. It was at a point where I had not been involved in…well, my history throughout the couple years before the Butchershop that had been focused within media art, sound art, and electronic music; as well as in radical politics in Vancouver and coalitions. It was interesting to come back to the Butchershop because it was resurfacing those small politics of groups. I definitely knew maybe 3 people over the collective before hand, I think I knew the most. Later the larger group [in the collective] distilled to 12 people for the bulk of the time frame. It was great for meeting new people, finding common friends and talking about how to expand our national network over Vancouver art scene. Being able to work in a group like that and having the possibility was great. It really connected me to a grassroots scene in Vancouver and beyond. Definitely made some good connections with Seattle and Portland and Montreal and New York. It broadened my scope. It was a good time…and lots of free beers.

Z: Oh yea lots of good times. Mirae I think that is where we first met.

M: Oh yea we must have.

Z: I saw you dance there! So many memories, seems like such long time ago. Ok, Jesse can you describe the social formation among Butchershop members: how did you organize yourselves, delegate tasks…?

J: That’s an interesting thing. We quasi-adopted a structure that Forbes recommended, just because he was in position of power and influence in terms, he was logistically minded. Some of the rest of us weren’t and some of use were, but no one was really willing to step up and make policy directive. So we rolled with his ideas. We formed three major sub committees of programming: exhibitions, music and events. We had a ‘developments committee’ that was working on possibility of grants, we had a treasurer who was keeping track of the books making sure they were ok. We communicated over a group mailing list and we had meetings every week, every Tuesday at 7 – which involved a lot of hawkers and lot of booze. And, ya know, we were essentially pretty unproductive. Yea, haha, I took minutes almost all the time and I have back logs of minutes. I look through them sometimes and find jokes that I had put into them.

[Jesse sits back comfortably, takes a sip of scotch and snickers]

Z: Can you please share?

J: Yea, totally. It was interesting relationship too because at our peak there were 21 people and at our lowest 8 people. There was 12 -15 generally but people opted in and out. The great thing was by having many people you were kind of allowed that space. What I mean is that sometimes I would be overwhelmed with another project when New Forms came up in September or if had a lot of work. Most of us were working at the same time as well, so you could step back a little bit like up to a month or 2 months at time. So other people could take the reigns - other people could take minutes or do press promo which I, say, had started with but had no time to finish. And then when I came back, I would jump back on something and somebody else could take some time off. It was great, self regulated mechanism that was really unspoken and kind of like an unwritten law. But it was pretty effective, even if it was frustrating sometimes, because sometimes we all could have benefited from some people being there, from someone else’s experience. So I could say that some members took liberties with that in terms of being “you know 12 other people are there, therefore I can skip out on this tonight.” But there was almost healthy discrepancies in terms of give and take, in general a pretty effective and fair experiment. I kind of thought of it in social and political terms: if we were some type Marxist experiment or some type of a commune or something like that; it would have kept itself running, we were going through some ups and downs, and some peaks and valleys, a little built of resentment – but essentially people knew when it was it was getting towards a breaking point and responded.

Z: What is the history behind Butchershop’s closure?

J: Like I said eventually it became victim of its own success. Uhh. We got too popular for our own good. We had been dealing with a building inspector, Adrian Buchanan for going on 2 years. He was pretty cool, he appreciated what we were doing but he agreed to turn a blind eye. He said: “Keep it under wraps as long as I don’t get a report about you on my desk! I don’t know who you are, I am not gonna actively enforce any bylaws against you.”

Z: How did he find you guys in the first place?

J: From Forbes, don’t know exactly. Whether Forbes approached him or whether he came to us from a complaint. But…Forbes had known him and had a relationship with him before we took over. Essentially, we were forced within the funded model to be a little booze can and a little bit of music space, things that were not legal for us to be doing. We never made any money off of booze, to be honest. It was more of a draw to get people in there. A chance that people brought there own booze anyway, it was a space that you saw people drink their own mickies of stuff, and ‘ah, faah thanks for supporting’. Basically after the NPA got elected in January 05, he [Buchanan?] came around and said: “There is going to be more tension on guys just so you know, I might come by with my boss sometimes.” Shortly after, we got our third noise complaint in 3 years, from the same residence on 26th. Somebody had thrown a beer can in to her rose bushes – and she took offense to that and made a complaint, it ended up on Buchanan’s desk. The boss showed up to the next art opening, which was a Parliament of Owl Show, in Dec 05. There was coffee and tea being served, there was an acoustic musician and there were kids blowing bubbles. There was a little sculpture, toys and sowing stuff. They said: “No this is illegal. Just cut it!” We were told that the Butchershop is basically outside of the zoning district. We were given a 30 day ultimatum of cease and desist order and [Jesse pauses and pinches his lips]...
We were basically ordered to engage in dialogue about zoning and upgrading with initial estimate of 80 000 dollars in fees – their quote [Jesse’s voice rises, an emphasis, perhaps a hint of resentment and cynicism] - to begin initiating a process and not finish the construction, with permits and their surveys from their people. They gave us a month to enter a dialogue with them and pay 80 000 dollars or to vacate, or to cease operations. We effectively ceased operations and we did not really vacate for another month. We floated the space for another month, and just realized there was no way we could continue to try and even raise funds to support ourselves with this order, let alone try raise 80 000 dollars.

Z: That is impossible. Especially for a place that is not making money, totally ridiculous.

J: Yea.

Z: What did you feel when it was shut down, what was lost?

J: I used it, as did all of us, as platform for my own creation and practice and as my own studio. So yea, I lost a studio, I lost a platform for my own creation and bringing in my own community, which at that point was an independent, experimental media arts into the space. I knew right away that even though we made gestures towards moving on to another space, or being a just producing team or starting a new collective was just not going to happen. I knew that certain people were on cusps of other things and in sense certain people were tired of catering to a majority or within politics. Certain people just wanted to fuck around or get out of the city. So I knew it was over, even though we pretended it wasn’t for 3 or 4 months.

Z: after you lost the space?

J: Yea, after. So I knew that without a space, without a platform that the community had been dissolved. People that I had grown really close to and struggled to do a lot of stuff with. I just knew we were going to drift a part with and we did.

Z: So there was some hope?

J: Yes and no. We had a really pragmatic view, a realist view about the realities of having a space. And we looked for spaces for about a month and half. And really realized we could not raise a capital to try get a space to do what we wanted it to do.

Z: And this new space…would you have created it by the book?

J: We were attempting to, but we realized that the ceiling level for that was something we couldn’t stand on each other’s shoulders and reach. We were trying to get a space with a cabaret license in order to fund ourselves - then no. The other option was to float a space and stay in the Butchershop for about 3 years, without doing any major public events, without music, without alcohol, without major revenue builders – to even start to qualify for any public assistance through Arts Councils. We weren’t willing to do that, to try and float things around for another 3 years, and then yea we couldn’t afford the capital investment for getting cabaret license for a space. It was out our reach.

Z: Thanks Jesse thank you for sharing. I recall so many memories.

J: I know every time I speak about it…

Z: I know…

J: Definitely good times

Interview - Pt 1

The following is a transcription of an interview we did with a friend who was taking a Human Geography class at UBC and asked us some questions about cultural infrastructure, et al. Apologies for the frankness of it all!

Credit: Zuzia Juszkiewicz, Undergrad.
Under the Direction of Prof. Kathrine Richardson, UBC
Class: Off Campus Research in Human Geography

APPENDIX IV: “Strawberry and Scotch Sunday at the Memelab”
Interview with Mirae Rosner and Jesse Scott founders of Memelab

Z: Can you please tell the story behind memelab's creation how did you come across this space?

J: Sure, I guess the premises has to do with the person who lived here before us. He had essentially canvassed our neighborhoods looking for warehouse space, ended up running into Darren Stark and Ed Ferreria who were two major developers for CBRE – which is one of the main property developers within Yaletown. He kept on running them running in to these buildings and eventually found a suite of buildings on this block of Pandora. And found our landlord who is the only independent landlord in this area and set up shop here and started a studio. When he was moving out he just notified his mailing list and we jumped on the opportunity right away.

M: The space has some kind of history also before our friend found it. It was a party space because the landlord said when we moved in…well the landlord had told us no raves, so we said “Ok, we’re not going to throw any raves because no one does that anymore anyway (they're called hipster dance parties now!)”. The landlord is ok with us living here even though it is a totally underground illegal space in everyway. And we wanted a space, we wanted to live in a loft space where we could do our work, and have a rehearsal space, and have things going on for ourselves. And then, because we are performers we wanted to open it up to the community through these events. So we started to have these art parties - art salon events - which would bring together a variety of people in the arts, different arts, communities. Sometimes activist communities show up too and some other underground scenes – just bringing them all together and bringing in new people that do not go to any art event ever. So that was kind of where things started off in terms of becoming a space – is our desire to have these events.

From there it took about 6 months. After the first event we got the floor, and then after we got the dance floor it is now a studio where people use it for meditation group, yoga, belly dance classes, voice classes. We have had a variety of different types of people coming to rehearse here, like dance and theatre work, photo shoots. And just through word of mouth, no advertising because we are totally underground – we don’t advertise directly anywhere - through that there’s slowly an identity that’s built up in the space. It’s an identity that’s based on the fact that people come to use the space. Because there is this community of people that are accessing and using this space, we try to keep it as grass roots as possible with rentals being really cheap but we also do exchanges and work with people who do not have any money. So that’s kind of where it becomes a community space – is in that way more than it just being a community performance space although that has happened occasionally. We stopped the art salon series now and we are leaving the space soon. We might do a few more events here, but it won’t be the ones that we have done in the past.

J: …but we are making sure we pass the space off to somebody who’s going to be able to continue within the spirit of the space.

M: there are groups that have been here now for over a year, that use the space and we want them to remain. Where people come in and have their group meetings. Who ever takes this space over, is someone who wants to continue that. It’s too collective to stop it from going and we don’t want to see them [collectives, artists] out on the streets.

Z: Where are you guys going, are you moving on somewhere?

M: yea we are leaving the country in October

Z: you’re leaving the country!

M: yes, we will move to Europe for a while. We have been here for 3 years, and we have carried on through with the art party salons and we have done 7 of them. 7 over the course of 2.5 years. Kinda feel like we have carried that as far as it can go. The space is at a point now where we have been putting a lot into it as a community place. We have done own work here too….

J: its disproportional

M: Well, the balance between trying to be artists ourselves and things we need to do for ourselves, its always been balanced between what we are doing for the space. All the facilitation that comes about when you have lots of people using this space – just keeping track of schedules and making things happen – takes a lot of administrative work. So, we are at the point where we need to focus on our own work and see what else is going on in other places. It’s again important for us to see the space continue. Might get a new name, we don’t know about that, but the communities that are accessing it will continue on and so, in a lot of ways it has been very successful. But there are significant groups of people that have come together and they’re – like the meditation group has grown – the dance collective has grown and its established, its been almost a year now, and its going strong now, it’s grown. People keep gaining skills and becoming more creative in knowing what they are creating as a group together – mostly in movement. Then we also have noise jams - an all female noise collective, that is growing too. There are teachers who have used this space but these three groups – its just amazing to see them grow. And yea, its so important for us to definitely leave that legacy because there isn’t a lot of spaces where something like this is happening. It’s hard to find them and really hard to maintain them.

Z: exactly...would then the memelab have to get some funding so you can see it, witness its growth?

J and M: uhh…[hesitation, Jesse and Mirae look at one another]

J: The thing is that it can’t really grow.

M: There is nowhere to go from here. It’s become what it is. There is no one level to go to, for a whole variety of reasons.

Z: ok…uh, well then maybe in the spirit of grassroots and sustainability: how do you envision this space being sustained?

M: What we have been doing is about all we can do. Just keeping our activities underground making sure that we don’t have huge parties that attract the cops, making sure that people that come to use the space are doing things that…well we are drawing a crowd that will be respectful of the space and the community around the space. And no advertising! Those are the things that we do, and somebody could potentially keep for years. But there is no security though. There are major zoning issues and major issues to do with that, making it a place of business, making it more sustainable and with making it more secure. First of all the landlord would have to renovate the building itself – it not legal at all to even have this suite period! So, if he wanted to that and spend thousands of dollars (which doesn’t), then we could start looking at upgrading this space. And so if we had thousands of dollars, once the landlord spent thousands of dollars, we could then spend thousands of dollars and only then could we have legal suite and workshop. Only then, it could be publicly accessible and it would have everything up to date: fire code, bathrooms whatever. Then, there would be a security there. As it is now there is none. All of this could be gone like that! … Well that’s kind of the reality and we have gotten used to that and used to dealing with it and used to knowing that. Umm, however we have been here for almost 3 years and nothing has happened. The practical side is that you know the reality and that you know how to work underground and within the restrictions. That is the practical approach which we have done. If we were to try to bring this space into another level, I think that the investigations we’ve done just show that it will be impossible. Especially considering the fact that we have to get the landlord to do something he himself doesn’t really want to do and doesn’t really need to do for his business – for any reason expect for us. This whole building is illegally subdivided. He would have to go and get the city to come in and approve things, and he would have to do lots of construction to bring it up to some kind of code because it is a warehouse – so it could be some kind of industrial building. So for now, they built these walls and floors and things.

J: you know they just built it and never really bothered to get into zoning qualification. And just getting by like…

Z: So you can’t do much with the actual physical structure?

M: Oh, we did have a friend who did this in the neighborhood. We do know people who did their all their research, very well connected, really on it. They tried to rent a collective space in this area, and they were kicked out within minutes. The city would not allow…

Z: what happened?

M: I think the main issues are that city is not willing to have these front-runners, gentrifiers, artists starting to move into this area.

J: They [the city] told the landlord that they were not interested in to looking into any sorts of rezoning. And whatever it was they were trying to do: an office slash bookshop slash community space.

Z: that is very bleak. Speaking of such actions, do any of the organizations such as Arts Alliances or Task Forces in city get involved in helping to sustain spaces and collectives such as this or is it pretty hands off?

J: Places such as the Arts Alliance and place of Cultural Affairs are primarily looking out for their own, and primarily stuck within their world view. So places like the Office of Cultural Affairs and Arts Alliances are looking for places that are established that are legal, that are on the map. PAARC is sympathetic to underground spaces because they have been there and that is where the come from, the Artist-Run Culture, but at the same time it’s a bit of a dog eat dog world in terms of funding, audience, demographic and audience development. So in my experience moving into PAARC with Post-Butchershop Coalition was that they were “Oh sorry its to bad, its sucks…ok, so about this grant….” The Vancouver foundation turned the page pretty quickly.

M: there is nothing in place where you could go and say “I want to start an Artist–Run Space. Can you help me? What do I need to do?"

J: There is intense amounts of capital of things that would have be brought into this process, for one. So there are no bridging institutions that would match artist with visions with venture capitalists, or people who have administration skills, organization skills…

M: yeah so starting from square one if you didn’t have a space yet. You would be hard pressed to find resources to help you start one up properly. What people do is they go find some really sketchy place – and they just do it. They just move in thinking, “this could last for month, or it might not” or they are really naïve and they’ll be like “Hey this awesome”, they get really involved in it and they love it!”

J: They try to do everything by the book and it just burns them. Even to get the liquor licenses for their events which does nothing but put them on the map as a place to be shut down. Collectives attempt to go to the city of Vancouver and say “Hey we want to do this and this.” They [the city] says “Well guys its gonna take 5 years and 280 000 dollars.”…

[Mirae jumps in eagerly]

M: …So “hey now that we know where you are you need to pay us your money or you’re kicked out!” That’s exactly the process that has been repeated again and again: somebody will start something up and on practical, functional level it is working – people are using the space there is a lot going on, there is a lot of cultural vitality happening. When the law gets involved because there has been a party and somebody has made a noise complaint, or because the people throwing the party went to get a temporary liquor license and do it by the book; then the task forces are the team that goes out on Saturday nights and inspects the liquor license and catches them. When something wrong happens there is nothing in place at the stage, there is nobody around that says “Hey you guys are contributing to culture in this city and we want to help you not get shut down. If you get your act together you can apply for this grant to do this upgrade or we’re gonna waive this fee (kind of a bursary). We’re gonna help you out because you artist and you don’t make money of your space, like a retail space would.” At these various stages there is nothing around. We have been doing these various meetings to get people talking about this stuff. This one guys who is a city planner said, well his idea was, there needs to be an advocacy group for this. There needs to be somebody around that people can go to either at stage one or later in the process. Somebody that will actually be like: “Ok we’re gonna advocate for these spaces”. Because they really need to be fostered I believe, I really think we are not allowing for this stuff to bubble up from the grassroots. Thus we will continue to see mono-culture everywhere, in the city, in its buildings in its places to gather. It’s really fascinating to me that people keep doing it.

Z: You are right, even the advocates in place that claim they have interest in local culture, fail to show up to public meetings at the city, for example like 901 Main St. They just don’t show based on excuses that they were not given enough time. Where is public response?

M: Well the problem is these spaces are from the underground. I think it is important to have a lot of diversity in culture on those levels. In a way things are pushed underground and because it’s a two way street: things are surviving underground and contribute to the cultural vitality, but then on the public side people do not know about them; they are not as aware. In our experience when people come here [memelab] for instance they would bring their co-workers. The co-workers would be like “woah! I have never been to an art gallery before and here I am, and this is so great and so cool.” Then we would have someone’s mom come to an event and say: “I’m so glad the kids these days aren’t like Paris Hilton.” They actually said that! On that level there is a lot of potential if we had a little more of this advocacy and enabling of these spaces and you know, it just would contribute to the texture and fabric of the city, and the cultural life of this city in a way where there could be little more exposure. Artist could thrive and create stronger work, its about community building for me, more then anything - and community has got to start somewhere. In a way we have responsibility to artists but we also have to work with them in terms of that communication. So…you can’t really say “The public doesn’t want this, we should do this. Because the public wants the big cinema then we’ll…” [Mirae looks down at her green tea and pauses]…if there isn’t the other option there, how will people make the choice, if there isn’t any choice. If artist are not around to work on these choices.

Z: Yes, awareness important whether in the community itself or in a larger local-global discourse, this idea of what choices we have…[I stumble over my words] Moving on I would like readdress the memelab: Can you please tell me a little about your most successful show in this space, and what to you made it successful?

J: I guess there are different qualifications of success. You know with our salon series we have had ones that have been really full and we have had ones that have had well received art, we have ones that have evoked very passionate almost controversial discussion, or ones where we have seen the place get totally trashed. Some of those have intersected in salons others its kind hard to say, but u…

[pauses]

M: The events I guess one of the salons, more intimate, less work, the audience was mellow and there were 60 people. And that one felt nice. I think for me, the success is the groups that are coming out of this space and think that those groups are really the most successful things. It is really about these new community, and new communities of artists and people connecting…

J:..a sense of empowerment and sense of legacy

M:…being able to provide a space for them has made them possible. Some of them started without us and then have found us. But I think being able to be a stable, cheap, affordable space…Oh, we also have discussion series that started, that is going really well too. Every time we get the right amount of people, 10 -15 people. We discuss the work of art

Z: oh critical response…can I hear more about it…I was think about coming but don’t know…

J: You don’t have to bring anything with you. It is a process that was developed by the Liz Lerman Dance Exchange. She was a dancer in Washington DC, and has been around for a long time …It’s a process that is very structured way for artists to control and shape feedback mechanism for their work…

It’s a process that transcends genres….

[We speak a little about the history]

Z: How does it run form start to finish?

M: Process that needs to be taught. We have everyone come in. We have little snacks and tea and break the ice a bit. Then people get to know each other. And Laura teaches the four steps of the process. The first steps, the artist shows the work and we ask for brief responses from the audience usually, ones that involve…

[Jesse quickly jumps in]

J: statements of meaning!

[Jesse pauses, looks over at Mirae and she continues to speak]

M: Well, it is called “statements of meaning”. Basically, what you found to be meaningful, very briefly. Then the second step is that the artist asks questions and people respond without an opinion. They answer the question, they have to answer the question they can’t go off on a tangent! [Mirae’s raises her tone] Then the artist can ask question, but they make sure that within their question they can’t state an opinion.

J: If they want to the artist does not have to answer.

M: Well, I guess they don’t, no. Then the last piece is that audience state opinions with permission form the artist. This really breaks it down very simply but the whole thing is about attempting to give the best feedback to the artist. Its about the artist gain of the feedback, doing it in away that brings discussion to the issues rather than about people’s personal views about what the artist should do and what they should have done and what they need to do. Trying to take that out and trying…

J: …Essentially, it’s the piece that lands back in the hands of the artist. Make sure the piece and the work and the showing, is about empowering the work and not about gratifying the ego of the viewer. [25:00]

Z: That is fantastic…has this process been adopted anywhere?

M: It is taking off in the states in different communities. Its getting really well known. I guess it’s starting to come to Canada.

Z: It’s cool.

M: its cool, it almost like doing a workshop because we have each time lots of new people and we have to learn. And it is one of those things how you are speaking, what you are saying. How you are trying to say what you want to say. IT is intense.

Z: Who are the Artists?

M: well if you have something to show you can just sign up. The work can be any medium, or at any stage: almost done, just started, just an idea but it has to be something you are working on and want to continue working on…

[Zuzia Rambles, must be the scotch].

Z: how do you function as a collaboration: what are you influences, where you gel or clash or how do you work things out?

J: between us?

Z: Yeah. Just curious how it materializes, how your efforts get put “out there” into your space?

J: Well, a lot of the salons, art parties. We kind of set the stage and we give general guidelines about the form and function of things and then allow people to take it up themselves and work with them throughout the process. Give where possible: studio, rehearsal and inspiration, time and chances for artist can connect and collaborate on something themselves. Throughout friends in the community and people who are involved here - Dance troop, Critical Response – have been either co-initiated or pitched to us.

M: right

J: In terms of staging here; we have instances where in retrospect and before announcing something we have realized that has not been a collaborative effort, and we attempted to addend that and have cancelled or not gone forward with events. The collective process is the key to the whole idea, that it is a lateral power structure.

M: We have always done things that are informal, works in progress, experiments, an emphasis on that and on collaboration – bring different teams together. We've never reached a point where we had an idea, and we necessarily though of it in terms of structuring it to the point we were getting it across to the right people - that fit into the idea. Things evolve, things are collaborated on, sometimes we don’t know what the project is gonna look like the final stage. A lot of it has to do in the economics involved in the space, because there is no money involved, no one is getting paid, we are not hiring people. The lateral structure really comes out as part of the underground collaboration. The politics of the space are very much influenced by economics. We have made that choice to embrace that, economically we never know what could happen in the space. We never know what will happen with the night we are putting on in a way, sometimes, although we have had pretty clear ideas of certain perimeters. What happens: people that come into this space to work on things, they have to be down with the scene, and collaborative side of things, and have to know what it is that we are dealing with here. There is a cultural thing going on, which is interesting to me, we never really wanted to be exclusive, we don’t want to say “you can’t come you can’t participate because you are different”. It is an interesting paradox…Finding strength and community where people can support one another, but on the other side there is culture built up…If we were to be staying, here I would love to keep working with this paradigm and keep bringing in new influences into this particular community (the east side underground art space). This community has a certain cultural background and I think we [the city, and publics?] all need to be collectively more aware….just to know the certain nexus (very specific) that we are operating in. Saying that we have had new people that come in. And not all people mix… I am interested in the location that we are in. As artists in these neighborhoods, playing a role in the gentrification process possibly, we need to be aware of that and we need to be connecting more. I think in terms of the work that is being done in these neighborhoods. You know there is the party culture that attaches themselves, and they need to shut down. This party culture I think as a lack of consequence, in terms of being responsible. Those are some of the issues, if we were to be staying in this community, I would like to address…In some ways we are already by saying we are workshop space, we are not a party space, we are not getting shut down. We are enabling and all female noise collective, we are doing Dance stuff, meditation, we are doing a different types of things, within the public events if we were stay – we would have to look at restructuring those because they are starting to get too much of party thing. The collaboration throughout all of this is really key, and collaboration has to occur when people have to agree on something. That is where the cultural thing happens. When people have come in and want to show something. .. It is an interesting moment, when do you become exclusive? Where do you not collaborate with somebody?

Z: You provide an environment where you can get people involved…however, is this a space where your collectives and audience can start embracing these very same ideas you are attracted to and critique?

M: maybe

J: ..can’t cognize it - the element of support structure.

M: we had one group…wanna talk about it.

J: No

Z: what went on?

M: no there is this other situation.

J: it’s not relevant.

Z: oh…well tell me off record…thanks guys!